Friday, August 15, 2008

Facets of reservation in Tamil Nadu


Out of 425 seats in medical college open to everyone, 332 go to reserved category students (378 if you include 28 backward Christians and 18 backward Muslims):

Out of 1,368 medical seats available for distribution in the first phase of admissions, 425 are in the open category since Tamil Nadu has a total reservation of 69%, which leaves 31% for open competition. Of these 425 seats, 378 have gone this year to candidates belonging to communities covered by quotas but who made it in the general category on their merit. They account for 88.94% of the open seats.

Of those from underdeveloped communities who have made it through the open quota , as many as 244 are backward class candidates and 60 from the most backward group. In addition, there are 27 scheduled caste candidates and one from a scheduled tribe. The rest comprise Christians (28) and Muslims (18) who come from disadvantaged groups who also enjoy a quota of 3.5% each in the backward class category.

* * *

I am not at all sympathetic to this kind of broad, general attacks on affirmative action policies (particularly when they are based on stuff like "oh, it's just not good for the beneficiaries' self esteem"), but the following observation is so striking that it makes me want to go read Marc Galanter's work on affirmative action:

Marc Galanter [in his 1984 book Competing Equalities] points out that, in Tamil Nadu, the highest of the so-called ‘backward classes’ legally entitled to preferences, constituting 11% of the total ‘backward classes’ population in the state, received almost half of all jobs and university admissions set aside for these classes. [Link]

* * *

Finally, this news item is noteworthy simply because of certain interesting arguments used by one potential beneficiary of reservations in his case against the 30 percent quota in TN government jobs for women:

The petitioner, a most backward class candidate who had applied for Group-I services in August last year, said the horizontal reservation of 30 per cent for women candidates was unconstitutional as the discrimination was based on sex.

Noting that the reservation , provided for under Section 21 of the Tamilnadu State and Subordinate Service Rules, ran counter to Article 16(2) of the Constitution , Vijayaraghavan said it would help women candidates with less marks to enter the services.

29 Comments:

  1. Pratik Ray said...

    Now that reserved candidates secure 89% of the seats in open category, is there any point in continuing with reservations in TN?

    Interestingly, the "counselling" policy followed in TN is just the opposite of what is followed in a number of eastern states and IITs. The "counseling" for open seats are taken up first, so presumably, most of the top rankers (and upper-mid rankers) in the reserved category are admitted in the open category. Finally, after these seats are allocated, the "counselling" for the reserved category seats start.

  2. Anonymous said...

    Does the following statement in the same article speak something about the 'reserved category' candidates securing 89% of seats in the 'open' category?

    "Incidentally, much of the state's population has been covered by the quota dispensation. Barring a handful of 'upper' castes accounting for a small percentage of the total population , nearly every caste has been brought under the reservation purview."

    -kumar

  3. kuffir said...

    this is about tamil nadu, abi. but for many, it is 'the broad, general truth' about reservations all across the country. especially the media. and when the 'open category' starts discussing reservations, one realizes how hollow a right they are..

  4. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Now that reserved candidates secure 89% of the seats in open category, is there any point in continuing with reservations in TN?//

    Do you accept that

    1. Reservations Work

    2. reservations in long term will uplift Reserved Category

    3. Reservations have to be implemented all over India at once

  5. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Interestingly, the "counselling" policy followed in TN is just the opposite of what is followed in a number of eastern states and IITs. The "counseling" for open seats are taken up first, so presumably, most of the top rankers (and upper-mid rankers) in the reserved category are admitted in the open category. Finally, after these seats are allocated, the "counselling" for the reserved category seats start.//

    That is how it should be done

    The IITs (who do not even release the mark list of the candidates) have made a system to give 77.5 reservation to FC). The same practise is also followed by AIIMS

    In any case, across the globe, reserved candidate can take part in Open as well as in the reserved area. Take the example of Ladies Coach in Train

    Ladies can get in a General Compartment or a Ladies Compartment
    But Gents can get into a general Compartment

    IITs have their own methods to make sure that the Reserved Communities get least benefitted and the unethical way of counselling is just one of them

    UPSC also did the same way, until it was pulled by the Court

  6. புருனோ Bruno said...

    I had already written a post on this (2008 MBBS allotment in Tamil Nadu)

    What is the community of the top 500 rankers in Tamil Nadu in my Blog

  7. புருனோ Bruno said...

    My take on this line in the article cited by you

    //Firstly, many open quota candidates opt for other professional courses like engineering or chartered accountancy or for education abroad after undergraduate courses in arts, science and commerce.//

    is at my Blog

    What is the Caste Composition of the Students who do not opt for MBBS

    Vacancy Position after First Round of Counselling

  8. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //But the view on the other side is that it's time caste-based quotas were either reviewed or entirely replaced by economic criteria. "It's time we review the quota system in this country ," says veteran journalist Cho Ramaswamy. "Though there has been a trend of the backward classes doing well, this year's data is striking. Our policy makers should review the caste-based quota system we follow every two years. This will itself indicate what changes should be done." //

    At the same time, should not the Central Government Review its policies and implement reservations as it is followed in Tamil Nadu so that we see such a improved performance all over the country.

    The data (from TN) itself of course indicate what changes should be done all over the country.

  9. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Marc Galanter [in his 1984 book Competing Equalities] points out that, in Tamil Nadu, the highest of the so-called ‘backward classes’ legally entitled to preferences, constituting 11% of the total ‘backward classes’ population in the state, received almost half of all jobs and university admissions set aside for these classes.//

    That (also) has been countered in TN by introduction of
    20 % Quota for MBC
    3.5 % for BCC
    3.5 % for BCM

    --

    What prevents Other states and the Union Government from doing what TN has done, which has given the results that are intended :) :)

    --

    If the learned people like Cho can accept this data and want reservation to be reviewed in TN, that itself tells that this method should be followed immediately all over the country

  10. புருனோ Bruno said...

    And finally, this

    This is a unique phenomenon that happens only in Tamil Nadu largely due to effective implementation of reservation. It is not the first but second generation of children who are reaping the fruits of the policy we introduced several decades ago. The parents who went through an uphill task now boost the confidence levels of their children making them as competent as the open category candidates,"

    --

    Implement the same mode throughout India, and in another 30 years, we can see this sort of changes and after that we can review the policy

  11. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Marc Galanter [in his 1984 book Competing Equalities] //

    MBC Reservation has been already introduced in TN (in the late 1980s) so that this point is invalid (at present) as for as TN is concerned

  12. Anonymous said...

    /Do you accept that

    1. Reservations Work

    2. reservations in long term will uplift Reserved Category

    3. Reservations have to be implemented all over India at once
    /


    Do you accept -

    1. Reservations have outlasted their need in TN?

    2. Reservations should be removed in the long term

    3. Reservations should be lifted immediately in TN?

  13. Anonymous said...

    /The IITs (who do not even release the mark list of the candidates) have made a system to give 77.5 reservation to FC). The same practise is also followed by AIIMS/

    Get you facts right. Starting this year it is no longer 77.5%. That, however, is a minor quibble.

    You clearly do not see the point why so many states other than TN and Karnataka conduct counselling for reserved categories before general category. Consider the case where a candidate from reserved category has a very high rank in the reserved list, but does not end up quite so high in the open category list. If the general category counselling is done earlier, this same candidate would be in a dilemma to decide whether he should take a seat, which may not be his 1st preference during general category counselling (due to his relatively not so high ranking in the general category list); or should he forfeit his chance and wait for counselling in the reserved category list (where he has a relatively high rank). Since he does not know how the counselling for the other general category students during the open category counselling will pan out (implying, he may, or may not get the seat of his choice in the reserved category counselling as well).

  14. Anonymous said...

    /Take the example of Ladies Coach in Train/

    Quite often, women traveling with their family will take the general compartment, i.e., they have a clear need to be in the general compartments.

    How many reserved category students "enter" the academic institutions with their "family", i.e. to enter these institutions, they need to be on one list and not the other?

    Ill chosen example. Situations are different.

  15. Anonymous said...

    /when the 'open category' starts discussing reservations, one realizes how hollow a right they are/

    That's right. Open category always resonate a "hollow right'. Reserved categories can do no wrong. Their logic is impeccable.

  16. புருனோ Bruno said...

    Anony
    Please tell YOUR stand about India as a whole.

    Your question to me is about Tamil nadu.

  17. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Get you facts right. Starting this year it is no longer 77.5%//

    My facts are RIGHT. For the past years, it was only 77.5 %

  18. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //f the general category counselling is done earlier, this same candidate would be in a dilemma to decide whether he should take a seat, which may not be his 1st preference during general category counselling (due to his relatively not so high ranking in the general category list); or should he forfeit his chance and wait for counselling in the reserved category list (where he has a relatively high rank). Since he does not know how the counselling for the other general category students during the open category counselling will pan out (implying, he may, or may not get the seat of his choice in the reserved category counselling as well).//

    Dear Dear Dear,

    What is the need for confusion.

    Assume that there are 1000 seats, 100 each in 10 disciplines.

    Now in each of these 10 disciplines, 15 seats are reserved for SC (Making it 150 seats in total).

    Now OPEN Counselling is done. SC Rank 10 has Open Rank 100.

    He walks in after Rank 99.

    Now, he is permitted to take any of the seats remaining in the OC OR any seats remaining in SC.

    So if the seat he wants is available in OC, he takes it is OC. If the seat is not available, he takes in SC.

    This is how they do in Tamil Nadu.

    During the OC Counselling itself, the candidate can take the seat in OC (if that is available) or the seat in BC / MBC / SC / ST whatever is available to him

    --

    So there is absolutely no dilemma whatsoever. This system is not followed in IITs for reasons well known to every one.

    If you have any doubts please ask I can explain in more detail.

  19. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Quite often, women traveling with their family will take the general compartment, i.e., they have a clear need to be in the general compartments.//

    Exactly

    That is the norms

    Ladies only are permitted in Coaches earmarked for them

    But Ladies are permitted in General Coaches also

    --

    That is how they do in Tamil Nadu

    Only SC candidates can take seats in SC

    SC Candidates can take seats in SC or OC

    --

    But why are the Directors of IITs doing it in the wrong way

    1. Is it because they do not know elementary mathematics (May be possible as we have seen that IITs have admitted even candidates with Single digit marks in General Category)

    2. Or it is because they want to CHEAT others.

    Only IITians can answer this

  20. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //That's right. Open category always resonate a "hollow right'.//

    No dear. Not always. But in this issue of IIT admissions, the right is hollow !!

    // Reserved categories can do no wrong. Their logic is impeccable.//

    Not always. But in this issue, the logic is impeccable :) :)

  21. Anonymous said...

    Dear Dr bruno,

    My take is this:

    while reservations may be applied to rest of India, it is high time it was removed in TN. Reservations have served their purpose, and if there is any common sense left, TN would revert to 100% OC.

    At this point, reservations can no longer "uplift" the reserved categories any further in TN.

    And oh, if reservations are not lifted in TN, well, it would only be clear that the sole purpose of reservations is for politicians to incite the masses and garner votes (as if this was not clear already).

  22. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //And oh, if reservations are not lifted in TN, well, it would only be clear that the sole purpose of reservations is for politicians to incite the masses and garner votes (as if this was not clear already).//

    OK...

    What do you think was the sole purpose of Supreme Court which said NO WORK NO PAY for striking workers, but asked government to pay our tax money for the doctors from AIIMS

    What do you think is the sole purpose of paying JUST ONE GROUP of People their pay for work not done, while penalising every one else.

  23. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //while reservations may be applied to rest of India,//

    My take is this

    Reservations can be removed from Tamil Nadu 20 years after OBC Reservations are implemented throughout India

    And Reservations can be removed from India 75 years after OBC reservations are implemented fully

    -

    By Implementation, I mean proper implementation and not the fraudulent ways of IIT

  24. revathi said...

    What percentage of the population comes under "unreserved" and do they even apply to MBBS courses in these above mentioned universities?
    It will be interesting to see who these people are and what they do for a living. Are these people from other states?

  25. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //What percentage of the population comes under "unreserved" and do they even apply to MBBS courses in these above mentioned universities?//

    YES. No doubt

    //It will be interesting to see who these people are and what they do for a living. Are these people from other states?//

    They are all those who have had continous education for 2000 years

  26. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //Are these people from other states?//

    No

  27. Anonymous said...

    Agreed that reservations work and hence all India implementation is needed. But this also clearly shows that reservations should be scraped in TN ASAP.

    Ram

  28. revathi said...

    Sorry bruno,

    No woman even from the highest caste got continuous education since 2000 years. Please do not neglect their plight, fair minded that you are.

    Also, 2000 years in a long time- no one knows who was educated and whether there was anything called education then. I think this is a scientific blog.

    I feel that a lot of people of north indian origin live in Tamil Nadu who had nothing to say or do about the caste system- do they belong to the state or not, according to your classification?

  29. புருனோ Bruno said...

    //I feel that a lot of people of north indian origin live in Tamil Nadu who had nothing to say or do about the caste system- do they belong to the state or not, according to your classification?//

    My classification is not importance. Please consult the official classification